Episode 104
Embracing Change: Patrick McCann's Journey to Retirement
On today's episode of The Career Confidence Podcast, Patrick McCann, ex-Head of Learning at Linklaters, talks us through his remarkable career journey and his (very!) recent transition into retirement. He shares not only the professional milestones he achieved in the world of law and learning but also the personal challenges he encountered along the way.
Patrick outlines the importance of kindness, resilience, and the continuous pursuit of authenticity, emphasising that the journey of self-discovery can be fraught with challenges yet ultimately rewarding.
Links referenced in this episode:
Key Takeaways:
- The transition from a structured career to retirement can evoke a complex array of emotions, including liberation and an opportunity to review and reestablish our identity.
- Reflecting on our career journey is vital; it allows us to acknowledge our accomplishments and recognise areas for growth.
- Establishing a supportive network or 'found family' is crucial, particularly in challenging times.
- Embracing change and pivoting in one's career is not only acceptable but can lead to renewed purpose and fulfillment in our professional life.
- The importance of kindness, both towards ourselves and others, cannot be overstated. Be a decent human!
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Hello and welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast where we share inspiring stories, practical strategies, hints and tips so that you build your career with confidence in this ever changing world.
Speaker B:I'm your host, Nicholas Semple, a career and confidence coach and author of the Career Confidence Toolkit.
Speaker B:And today I am delighted to welcome Patrick McCann to the podcast.
Speaker B:And oh my goodness, you are in for a treat because Patrick's reflections are absolute gold dust.
Speaker B:Patrick spoke to me just 24 hours into his new role of retiree.
Speaker B:Up until the previous week, he had been the head of Learning at Linklaters.
Speaker B:As if that role wasn't full on enough, he also was, and he continues to be, the co CEO at City Century, the chair of the City of London Law Society Training Committee and the founder of Social Welfare Solicitors Qualification Fund.
Speaker B:And I have to say as well, of all of his professional accolades, Patrick's just an all round fantastic human being who advocates kindness and wants us all to live in a world where being ourselves isn't seen as being brave, it's just the norm, it's just what we will all do.
Speaker B:So make yourself comfortable and settle in as Patrick reflects on his career and shares his wisdom.
Speaker B:So, Patrick, welcome.
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker A:Thank you for having me, I think is what he was supposed to say.
Speaker B:Well, actually, I need to say thank you to you because you are just over 24 hours into your new status of retired professional.
Speaker A:I am?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you've chosen to spend half an hour talking to me, so I feel very privileged.
Speaker A:Well, you're very kind.
Speaker A:I think it was me that postponed the last one, so maybe it was my fault.
Speaker A:But I think it's fair to say that I haven't completely yet transformed into, as I'm calling him, hashtag Pensioner Pat.
Speaker A:I haven't quite transformed into him yet.
Speaker A:So I'm still sort of working weirdly, but trying not to.
Speaker A:But there are various things I need to sort out in the next couple of weeks and so I, I will be transitioning in that sort of way, but it's a pleasure.
Speaker B:Well, we will move on and talk more about Pensioner Pat as we progress through the conversation, but if we could just start at the beginning.
Speaker B:So where, where did your career start, Pat?
Speaker B:I know that you did a law qualification.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:Well, it started a bit before that.
Speaker A:So when I was about.
Speaker A:I was, I was relatively clever kid in school and, and I was so.
Speaker A:My dad was British army, my mum was German, we were in British army camps in Germany and I was a visibly queer kid and so I wasn't right at the center of, you know, being Mr.
Speaker A:Popular.
Speaker A:And so the, the route through that I found for myself was to be liked by the teachers by doing well at school.
Speaker A:And there was also this really cool detective cum layer on US television called Petrocel.
Speaker A:He just, he just seemed really cool.
Speaker A:So I decided at the age of about nine that I wanted to become a, a lawyer.
Speaker A:Didn't know what, what that was, but I knew he was one.
Speaker A:And so of course the minute you say that to your parents, both my parents, you know, relatively working class, work their way up.
Speaker A:That's quite a good thing for your kid to want to do.
Speaker A:So I was then sort of put on a conveyor belt which I was very happy about.
Speaker A:And I'm skipped a year at school in order to get to another school that was comprehensive.
Speaker A:I then did well, got into the university of my choice which was King's College London, did a law and German law degree there, did law society finals.
Speaker A:And then at something like the age of 22 I started as a trainee solicitor in a firm called Dentons.
Speaker A:And it all been as long as you worked hard.
Speaker A:It was all relatively easy, you know, or very, if not easy, straightforward.
Speaker A:I can't say that university was easy.
Speaker A:Definitely felt like a fish out of water and that definitely took some adjustment.
Speaker A:And so then I started as a trainee solicitor in Denton's.
Speaker A:I stayed there for four years and then, well, if we went our separate ways, should we say I became a bit from having been very compliant.
Speaker A:I sort of began to find myself and my voice and I, I think I now realize that I was acting out against some of the stuff about I didn't have a bad childhood but how I had been treated as a K and going through school and what have you.
Speaker A:And I sort of wasn't prepared to be bullied anymore.
Speaker A:So that became a problem for my three bosses who wanted me to be a certain way, I think and wanted to sort of make me confident and comply.
Speaker A:And so we ended up going our different way.
Speaker A:So I did that and then I, I thought well, let me go and do something else.
Speaker A:I work for a tiny firm in North London.
Speaker A:And then I got ill, I got very ill, I got hepatitis and, and so I got let go there and then it was at that point when looking back I was dealing with a heavy illness and some depression and some mental health issues around anxiety that I, at one point I thought I might become a, a, an act steward for British Airways and I thought I might become a counselor.
Speaker A:And then a friend of Mine from school said, oh, look, I'm doing conference production.
Speaker A:Why don't you come and talk to me?
Speaker A:He introduced me to his boss, who became my boss and is still one of my best friends, Lindsay Scott.
Speaker A:And she said, come work for us.
Speaker A:So I did that and I had a lovely time.
Speaker A:And it was the first time since university that I remember people in authority being nice and kind and just involved and invested, enthusiastic about me.
Speaker A:So I became much, much happier with myself.
Speaker A:I did a.
Speaker A:I did a course at the time of exercise to music and became an aerobics teacher alongside working, did lots and lots of fitness classes and really found.
Speaker A:Really found my exuberance, found my power.
Speaker A:That company.
Speaker A:Then we.
Speaker A:They closed down that company for various good reasons not to do with us.
Speaker A:And then I got recruited into Bird and Bird as a learning manager.
Speaker A:So I was.
Speaker A:Went back into law firms.
Speaker A:And I remember at the time, you know, doing the interviews, they actually offered me the.
Speaker A:The job at the end of the interview, which was lovely.
Speaker A:But I said to myself, if they pay me this, because I was so used to not being happy in law firms.
Speaker A:I said to myself, if they pay me this sum, then that's enough for me to be unhappy.
Speaker A:And they paid me that much and I went into the law firm and then I was really happy and I was like, that's weird.
Speaker A:I didn't know that could happen.
Speaker B:Before we go on from there, I'm just really curious about.
Speaker B:From the age of nine, you thought you wanted to be a lawyer.
Speaker B:You then became a lawyer and it didn't quite work out how you expected it to.
Speaker B:How did it then feel to leave that law career behind?
Speaker B:And I know you came back to the law, but how did it feel at the time, just stepping away from that and doing something completely different?
Speaker A:It was because I left being lord while I was ill and really ill.
Speaker A:Not quite hospital ill, but definitely six to eight weeks in bed ill and definitely like a year's recovery ill.
Speaker A:I was mainly focusing on that and I kept some of my legal work in that period of being ill before I stopped, stop, stop being a lawyer, which was work I did for the Terrence Higgins Trust, which was for people with aids, who at that time HIV and AIDS was, you know, definitely increased your chances of.
Speaker A:Of you passing and leaving, leaving her.
Speaker A:So I was still doing some of that.
Speaker A:So I still felt like I was useful.
Speaker A:But then I got ill and I sort of, by the time I came out of being ill, I.
Speaker A:I was out of being a lawyer, if that makes sense.
Speaker B:So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I didn't really deal with the, oh, I'm not a lawyer anymore.
Speaker A:But it does still.
Speaker A:Even now, it still pings back to me because people will say, you a lawyer?
Speaker A:And I will say, no, but I used to be.
Speaker A:Even though I used to be 30 years ago.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Weird.
Speaker A:So I think the way it made you feel was, to some degree, liberated, but also you're.
Speaker A:You're questioning who you are because you've worked up to that for the last, you know, 15 plus years, and you definitely feel like you're not, as.
Speaker A:You don't have the same status, you're not as valued in society.
Speaker A:So that, that definitely.
Speaker A:So that brings with it a bit of sadness.
Speaker A:But then I would look around when I was doing my conferencing work, and I was working, you know, long hours, but they were okay hours, and they were fun and intense, but I was in charge of what I was doing and I responsible for what I was doing.
Speaker A:And I wasn't being, you know, micromanaged and I wasn't being told what to do.
Speaker A:And I looked around at my friends and who were still in the law, and I was like, I'm pleased to be out.
Speaker A:I really am.
Speaker A:And some of them loved it and some of them were really successful at it, but a lot of them didn't love it and a lot of them weren't successful at it, but we're still doing it.
Speaker A:So it felt like, you know, lots of emotions.
Speaker A:Lots of emotions.
Speaker A:But I wrote about this in about February last year on LinkedIn, and I was just saying it's okay to pivot.
Speaker A:And I was pivoting away from deep unhappiness.
Speaker A:And fortunately, I had my now husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, to help me through all of that.
Speaker A:And actually, it's fine.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's fine to.
Speaker A:It's fine to change.
Speaker A:There are a million.
Speaker A:There are a billion other things you could be doing other than what you're doing now if that doesn't make you happy.
Speaker A:So I learned.
Speaker A:I definitely learned that.
Speaker A:Scary, but it, you know, and I've pivoted, you know, several times in my career, and it's nearly always worked out.
Speaker A:It's nearly always been fine.
Speaker B:And as you say that the pivot is scary.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And sometimes even if the pivot doesn't work out, the process of pivoting is what you need to learn, what the next step needs to be for you.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker A:I think there's definitely a bit of.
Speaker A:Is this working for me, doing that assessment thing, then how much is it working or not working for me?
Speaker A:And then what might I do about that?
Speaker A:Doing that sort of due diligence, and then am I going to do something about that?
Speaker A:And then actually doing something about that and then deciding to go with that.
Speaker A:And certainly each time that I've tended to pivot, I've had some options about what I might do.
Speaker A:It's been quite reassuring to get to have other options.
Speaker A:Because you're, oh, that's okay.
Speaker A:I do have a value.
Speaker A:I'm not just locationally important.
Speaker A:I can, you know, I can be portable.
Speaker A:I can take what I've got and take it to other places.
Speaker A:And then it's been quite invigorating to.
Speaker A:To go in and do the new thing.
Speaker A:You sort of get rejuvenated.
Speaker A:I think it can also be very, very draining because you have to.
Speaker A:Suddenly all your senses have to be really firing and you have to be aware of absolutely everything.
Speaker A:And you can't sort of do anything on autopilot.
Speaker A:But it's been.
Speaker A:It's been all right, actually.
Speaker A:It's been all right.
Speaker A:And I definitely say to someone, notwithstanding, that the grass isn't always greener, it's certainly worth just knowing that there is other grass somewhere and just seeing what color it is and then doing a good assessment against the color of the grass on which you're standing.
Speaker A:Sorry I extended that metaphor.
Speaker B:Just horribly.
Speaker A:Apologies.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:So let's track back.
Speaker B:You are now moving into learning within a law firm.
Speaker B:You're getting paid what you want to get paid, and, oh, my goodness, you're actually enjoying it as well.
Speaker B:Who knew this was possible?
Speaker A:Yeah, I had a boss who was like, very nice man, very subuffed and tuft.
Speaker A:And he'd been a partner for 400 years.
Speaker A:And he really just wanted you to just do stuff over there.
Speaker A:Don't really bother me.
Speaker A:My performance reviews, which are once a year, were in the lift between the fifth and the ground floor.
Speaker A:And you had about 30 seconds.
Speaker A:And he would always finish with super, super.
Speaker A:More of the same was what I would say.
Speaker A:There was never anything I could improve.
Speaker A:He could never actually identify what it was that I did.
Speaker A:Well, he could never identify what I did, so that's fine.
Speaker A:So it's quite liberating.
Speaker A:I did lots of stuff outside of work, which was fun.
Speaker A:But what was great is that I had a bunch of people who around me who I really liked and who got me and who allowed me to be myself.
Speaker A:And as I was at that firm for five years, they kept allowing me to do more stuff and having mad ideas and they kept putting me into rooms that I wouldn't have been in before.
Speaker A:And just, you know, they'd literally say, go in there and just do what you do.
Speaker A:And then they'd say, and do it a bit more.
Speaker A:And then that really just allowed me to blossom.
Speaker A:And so I did some fun stuff there.
Speaker A:You know, I did.
Speaker A:I made a multi firm group.
Speaker A:You know, I increased what they did.
Speaker A:I introduced some programs into the firm, I reached out to other people and I galvanized some people in the firm and, and we overhauled some of our processes and all of that was.
Speaker A:And I got into new areas of work and I really enjoyed that.
Speaker A:I like being busy and I like to be liked and I like to be trusted.
Speaker A:And if you've got those three things in place, I'm sort of in full flow.
Speaker A:So it was lovely.
Speaker A:The one thing I didn't so much get there was sort of strong visionary leadership.
Speaker A:I was having to buy into my own vision rather than go, oh, I love what's going on there.
Speaker A:How can I help?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And then from there, what happens?
Speaker A:So, so I should say I haven't applied for a job in well over 20 years because what tends to happen is people go, will you come and talk to us?
Speaker A:So, so I was on a committee and one of the committee members said, oh, I'm leaving my job.
Speaker A:So if anybody, if ever anybody fancies that job, let me know.
Speaker A:I remember thinking, oh, I'd never go and work there.
Speaker A:I don't know why I thought that.
Speaker A:So I didn't say anything.
Speaker A:And then I had someone that kept trying to call me and eventually they got through and it turned out to be this amazing headhunter called Nick Wolf.
Speaker A:He said, come and talk to me.
Speaker A:And he said, I know he did his due diligence, right?
Speaker A:He goes, I know these 15 things about you.
Speaker A:And I was like, jesus, he's put some effort in.
Speaker A:And we had a really nice chat.
Speaker A:And he said, I really think you need to meet this guy at blp, just this wonderful man called Jeff Griffin.
Speaker A:So I went for an interview.
Speaker A:It lasted an hour.
Speaker A:It lasted two and a half hours.
Speaker A:It's supposed to be an hour.
Speaker A:But he and I were just vibing off each other and I just couldn't believe that I.
Speaker A:That there was this person who was, you know, somewhat ahead of me, but who was going to challenge me, going to stretch me, was listening to what I was saying.
Speaker A:And I remember Coming out of there, Nick said, how did it go?
Speaker A:And I said, I was in there for two and a half hours.
Speaker A:I said, I really want this job.
Speaker A:And it was to work with Jeff.
Speaker A:And so I went to that firm.
Speaker A:And in that firm, it was really.
Speaker A:It was a.
Speaker A:I just loved my time at Bowen, Layton Payson.
Speaker A:It was a very buzzy firm that was ambitious and, you know, would just have radical ideas and would just go out and do stuff.
Speaker A:And it was.
Speaker A:We were hungry and we were the scrappy underdog, so we had to fight against the big boys.
Speaker A:So it was lovely to be part of that energy.
Speaker A:And, you know, literally, Jeff and I would.
Speaker A:We would just, you know, chat, and then he'd go, yeah, go and do that.
Speaker A:And then I would go and do that.
Speaker A:And so that happened again and again and again.
Speaker A:You know, I ended up running the partners conferences.
Speaker A:I ended up running these big international law exchanges with my colleague Dar, you know, for.
Speaker A:For 40, 50 European law firms.
Speaker A:I overhauled all of our courses.
Speaker A:We put in competency frameworks.
Speaker A:I became quite well known on the.
Speaker A:On the committee that I was on at the time.
Speaker A:And it was just fab.
Speaker A:I was just able to have ideas and.
Speaker A:And implement them.
Speaker A:And we were really.
Speaker A:We started winning awards, we started getting known, and it was just really.
Speaker A:I just loved it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I just loved it.
Speaker A:And, you know, I've had.
Speaker A:I've had some really good jobs, but that was.
Speaker A:Those were possibly the six years where I felt most.
Speaker A:Most myself.
Speaker A:While that was going on, I.
Speaker A:My sort of fitness instruction got to a really good high level, and I got known for that.
Speaker A:And I turned 40, and that was a really great year for me.
Speaker A:I felt very secure and confident.
Speaker A:I got married to my husband.
Speaker A:We bought a house, a flat together.
Speaker A:And it was.
Speaker A:I just remember it as being a bit of a golden age, really.
Speaker A:It was just fun.
Speaker A:And I had a great.
Speaker A:I had a great team around me, you know, only small Dot, Sophie, Stephen, a couple of others, Lynn.
Speaker A:But it was just fab.
Speaker A:And I was.
Speaker A:I got to the level in that firm where I would ask someone to do something and I wouldn't finish the sentence, and they would say yes.
Speaker A:And I'd say, but you don't know what it is.
Speaker A:And they'd say, we trust you.
Speaker A:If you're asking, it's a yes.
Speaker A:And that was.
Speaker A:That was just lovely because you could just.
Speaker A:You could really change stuff.
Speaker A:You could.
Speaker A:You know, we did things like programs for all of the secretaries, you know, about development.
Speaker A:And we started with this feisty bunch, you know, who were not going to knock them.
Speaker A:And by the end of it, they were coming and bringing their mates and stuff and.
Speaker A:And they were using the language that we were using and it was just.
Speaker A:It was just lovely to see how you could help with organizational development within.
Speaker A:Within a firm.
Speaker A:So really, really happy times.
Speaker A:I also remember I had an office that looked over the Thames and that was just, you know, that's good for the soul.
Speaker A:That really is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That was the icing on the cake.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:One of the phrases I've heard you say a couple of times in relation to those times when you felt really happy and motivated and productive at work was when you could be myself.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Tell me more about that.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What does it mean to you to be able to be yourself at work?
Speaker A:So this is quite a difficult one to explain to someone that maybe isn't LGBTQ plus.
Speaker A:So when you're growing up, and I knew that there was something different and, dare I say it, special about me.
Speaker A:When I was about five, I had a friend called Adam.
Speaker A:I really liked Adam.
Speaker A:I really, really liked Adam.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that was that sorted and.
Speaker A:But I was not really able to bring that part of myself.
Speaker A:You know, my dad was army, we were.
Speaker A:Went to Catholic school.
Speaker A:My brother was the school sports champion of everything, my older brother.
Speaker A:And so there was an expectation that I would fit into that role, but that wasn't me.
Speaker A:You know, I would hang out with the girls.
Speaker A:I used to read Bunty magazine.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I didn't.
Speaker A:I wasn't wearing my mum's clothes or stuff, but I was presenting as visibly, you know, not standard.
Speaker A:And it's taken me a long time to realize this, but that can be quite.
Speaker A:It could be debilitating for someone.
Speaker A:And where it went through was it went into, you know, me realizing my acceptance, a little bit of sort of not shame, but just realizing danger, so suppression of who I am.
Speaker A:So quietness then to that.
Speaker A:Then coming outness, overly happiness or overstimulation, and then that going into rebelliousness and resentment and then working through that into another acceptance of myself and realizing everybody didn't have to like me, and then full ownership of.
Speaker A:Of who I am.
Speaker A:And that has then.
Speaker A:And then relatively quickly after that, there's become a bit of me that I feel I have to do this for other people that follow.
Speaker A:And then there's been a sort of a.
Speaker A:A cross identification with other people who are maybe not being able to, you know, fully inhabit who they are.
Speaker A:And I would say anybody that's not in the sort of the dominant communities in, in, in their life, in their environment, whatever that may be.
Speaker A:I will always identify with them.
Speaker A:I'll always identify with the underdog, and I will always try and help them because I want everybody to either have any easier life, I call them layers with fewer layers, or for them to be assisted with navigating those layers, but definitely not for those layers to become like things that bind you down and, and stop you, which they have been, you know, whether that's money, religion, ethnicity, gender, class, socioeconomic background, queerness, whatever it might be.
Speaker A:I, I just, I want everyone to have the same sort of opportunity in life.
Speaker A:Um, so it's, it's gone through that.
Speaker A:So I'm always told, oh, you're really authentic and, and you're really you.
Speaker A:And, you know, that's so brave.
Speaker A:And it's really nice that people say that, but, gosh, we should really be asking why it's brave for someone like me.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:To be who I am.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And we should be saying, let me help others so that it's not an issue.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I, I present it full force, right.
Speaker A:I, I, you know, I spray it out into the world so that everybody can see who I am.
Speaker A:So there's no doubt.
Speaker A:It's so that for the next person who doesn't have to be as extreme as me, it's a bit easier, and I do that much.
Speaker A:When, when I was working as a junior lawyer, I had a pro bono practice where I represented clients, the Terrence Higgins Trust.
Speaker A:They all died, essentially.
Speaker A:And I saw what the end of their lives were.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I was determined that I was going to try and make that better for, you know, so that doesn't happen to other people.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And so that's, I think that's sort of part of my purpose in life, is to help people a bit.
Speaker A:I don't want to sound like the British Red Cross or Mother Teresa or, or Oxfam or some billionaire s who's, you know, giving out a few pounds here and there.
Speaker A:But I do think I.
Speaker A:There's a, there's a higher purpose for me, which is about building communities and allowing people to be comfortable with who they are and then trying to help them on their way.
Speaker A:That's sort of what fires my fuel.
Speaker B:And so you were.
Speaker A:Kills my fire.
Speaker B:Fuels your fire.
Speaker A:Fire is my fuel, which I'm dangerous, doesn't it?
Speaker B:So, so you were in this environment where you were very much supported and able, not just able to be yourself, but feeling comfortable being yourself.
Speaker A:It's more, it's.
Speaker A:It's feeling a duty.
Speaker A:Right, yeah.
Speaker A:So like I wear, I wear nails and I wear nails.
Speaker A:I like the nails, don't get me wrong.
Speaker A:And there are lots of, you know, I've written about this on LinkedIn, but there are lots of plus to them.
Speaker A:But the main reason I wear these is so that people can see that someone older and relatively seem position up until last week is visibly different and therefore, but is included and is succeeding.
Speaker A:So you can as well, whoever you are.
Speaker A:So that's really.
Speaker B:And so just for the purposes of people who are listening and might not be able to see these nails.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker B:Patrick has the most fantastic manicure.
Speaker B:So we've got kind of luminous yellow in one hand.
Speaker B:What would we call that in the other?
Speaker B:Forest green?
Speaker A:Emerald green?
Speaker A:Well, yeah, it's not a million miles off the Liberty color.
Speaker A:So it's just like a turquoise.
Speaker A:No, not Liberty Tiffany colour.
Speaker A:It's a bit greener than that.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:It's number 167 in the shop, if anybody's looking for.
Speaker B:It's a number 167 and perfectly manicured nails, which I'm actually really quite jealous of because I do not have such things.
Speaker A:Well, neither do I without a nail artist.
Speaker B:And so as you alluded to, you were in this very senior role until last week.
Speaker B:So tell us a little bit more about that role and what you did there.
Speaker A:Yeah, so my official title was learning Director with the firm.
Speaker A:So five and a half thousand people, 40 offices, 30 countries, half of them were lawyers, half of them did other roles.
Speaker A:And so I was responsible for putting in all the learning programs and overseeing them and advising into the different departments who might be doing their own version and putting in coaching and mentoring development opportunities.
Speaker A:So that was the day job.
Speaker A:I ran a team of about 30 on the learning side and I also, with Michael Robson and Ellie Cracknell, co led the knowledge and learning team.
Speaker A:That was a 150.
Speaker A:So that was all the document management systems, all the, all the precedents that we were creating, the information research, we ran that together.
Speaker A:That's about 150 people.
Speaker A:So that was.
Speaker A:And that was a role that the three of us have been doing jointly for the last two and a half years.
Speaker A:So that, that was that role.
Speaker A:And I also sat as one of the directors.
Speaker A:So lots of sort of strategic stuff that you need to input there.
Speaker A:And I also sat on the HR leadership team.
Speaker A:So that's around the sort of the, the higher through to people leaving type cycle and all of the various policies and then I also was co senior sponsor of the LGBTQ network and I like to think I contributed to this.
Speaker A:We went from number 53 in the Stonewall Workplace Equality Index to number one in about three or four years.
Speaker A:So we're the current, the current record holders I like to think.
Speaker A:And then I also did some work around social ability.
Speaker A:So that was the stuff I did in Link Laters and that's the role from which I've retired.
Speaker A:So that was a full time, full on, full force type role.
Speaker A:And then alongside that I co founded Swissquiff, which is a fund that pays for leg lawyers to become solicitors.
Speaker A:I've raised over one and a quarter million for that, more or less personally that's now paying for over 120 people to do those exams.
Speaker A:And then I also with Joe Hughes, co founded and I'm co CEO of City Century, which is over 50 law firms based in London recruiting about 150 solicitor apprentices primarily from low seb backgrounds.
Speaker A:And then I was also chair of the City of London Law Society training Committee.
Speaker A:That was about 20 people on our committee.
Speaker A:And we represent City law firms, both the firms and their members in relation to their development and we quite often negotiate with represent to advocate for in front of Legal Services Board, the Law Society and the Solicitors Regulatory Authority.
Speaker A:So we do all that sort of stuff.
Speaker B:So I'm hearing all that and my first reaction is oh my God, I think I need to go and have a light in a darkened room.
Speaker B:Because that sounds like a lot, but what an achievement.
Speaker B:How absolutely fantastic.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, yeah.
Speaker A:Look, I'd like to say I'm amazing.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:But what I am is someone who's neurodiverse, which I found out last year and I got a, you know, relatively loose diagnosis, but a diagnosis of adhd.
Speaker A:And the way that presents for me is into hyper independence, um, also an ability to build teams around me.
Speaker A:I have a very fast mind which is constantly churning out stuff and then I can't bear for an idea to be unimplemented.
Speaker A:So, so that, so that means you're constantly adrenalined, constantly on the go, constantly organizing stuff, constantly trying to get stuff done.
Speaker A:So my husband keeps saying you're very easy to sell to.
Speaker A:It drives him crazy.
Speaker A:You can't put an advert on television without me going, oh, you know, I need to take up embroidery or whatever.
Speaker A:So it just means that if you work at a certain pace and you're prepared to take some risks and you're not a Perfectionist and you are prepared because you're not a perfectionist for something to go out the door, 80, 85 ready and to wing it on in some rooms.
Speaker A:Then you can get a lot lot done.
Speaker A:Which is, which is what I did.
Speaker A:I'm also super passive, which is partly adhd, which means I could build a CV out of making a cup of tea, I really could.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I would call it some sort of water transfer, transfusion, mechanical engineer or something.
Speaker A:And, and so it, it is a lot, but I will make it look like more.
Speaker A:And I do that for reasons which include to get people involved in my stuff.
Speaker A:There's a bit of, there's a bit of me showing off because I want to make up for the kid at school who was suppressed and I want other people to see a bit of a weirdo me succeeding in life and then they can go, okay, so I can do stuff.
Speaker A:So I do it for all of those reasons and because I don't know how to.
Speaker B:How not to now.
Speaker B:And this is the interesting bit, you don't know how not to.
Speaker B:So you made the decision, I'm assuming quite a few months ago about retiring.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yes, it's been odd to retire because it's come earlier, later and exactly the same time as I was sort of planning it to come.
Speaker A:But it's a bit weird.
Speaker A:So typically my life has been, go into a role, do it for about five years, get a phone call in year four or year five and then go on and take, you know, basically the same bag of tricks to the next, to the next firm and then you do, you know, you unpack your bag of tricks, you do that five years and then you, you put them all back in your, in your roll up and you go to the next place.
Speaker A:And so that was sort of my loose plan when I came to link laters.
Speaker A:But I've lasted eight and a half or I lasted eight and a half.
Speaker A:And I think it's, I think it's probably true to say that there was a sort of a coming together of various different factors.
Speaker A:So my husband is retiring next month, my dogs are getting older, I'm getting tireder.
Speaker A:I, I have had some mental health challenges just, you know, through keeping up with work.
Speaker A:And that now presents in me having pins and needles nearly all the time.
Speaker A:In fact, I'm going into a tube on Thursday to try and work out what's causing that.
Speaker A:And then I, I think it was fairly clear that what Linklators needs in terms of my role is someone that's you know, enthusiastically is in it for the next five years and that's not me.
Speaker A:And there's, you know, there's real change coming in in law, law firms and the legal sector with things like AI gen AI etc and also I have two brilliant, I had two brilliant second in commands, Ali McBurney and Dorothy abandonment Bruce and you know, it should be their time to shine.
Speaker A:So, so all of that stuff came together, paid off the mortgages and I had enough people around me either saying enough now or we're a bit worried about you or actually it's all right on the other side.
Speaker A:And so, you know, I had a couple of discussions with people at linknators and you know, that's resulted in me retiring, which has been a good but scary thing, I have to say.
Speaker A:And look, I'm only, what, a day and a half in to my retired life.
Speaker A:It really feels very weird.
Speaker A:Yeah, because it's new.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I've never done it, I've never climbed, never climbed Everest either.
Speaker A:But I'm sure that feels a bit unique.
Speaker A:So this is how this feels.
Speaker A:And so I'm not really sure what's next.
Speaker A:I'm not really sure how I feel about it, but.
Speaker A:And I've definitely not calmed down yet, so I think that's going to take a little while to decompress.
Speaker B:I think it's definitely going to take a little while and to be recording a podcast on effectively day two of your retirement.
Speaker B:And I know that you've had other meetings today, so yeah, it definitely will take a bit of time to decompress, as you say.
Speaker B:But reflecting back, so sitting in the position that you're in now and reflecting back over your career, what would you tell 21 year old Patrick?
Speaker A:I think a few things.
Speaker A:I would quite like Patrick fairly early on to think back about what he's managed to get done and how he's managed to get stuff done and pull some strength from that.
Speaker A:I would like him to be less fooled by other people in terms of, you know, when I went up to King's, most of the kids were from private schools, spoke beautifully, wore lovely outfits, so secure in themselves.
Speaker A:And I thought that that meant that they were, you know, more equipped than me and better.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It took me, it took me three years to realize that was not in fact the case.
Speaker A:So there's that.
Speaker A:I'd like to have worked, I know this sounds weird, I would have liked to have worked harder in my training contract to secure the role that I wanted.
Speaker A:There were two departments that I really wanted to go into on qualification.
Speaker A:One wasn't taking and the other one, I remember being told, no, the hiring partner wants a young, blonde, pretty, young female for that role.
Speaker A:And in fact there are two of those he's taken to.
Speaker A:He doesn't want you.
Speaker A:He wants these other two, Zoe and Tara.
Speaker A:I think I should have bought a bit of a discrimination claim then.
Speaker B:Anyway, I'm also impressed that you.
Speaker B:Well, I'm impressed but it, it tells you something about the situation that you remember those names 25, 30 years on.
Speaker A:Yeah, to be fair, I've got quite a good memory.
Speaker A:But yeah, and, and I think the other thing I would definitely say to myself is every week just look back at the week and just, just reflect on it and have a moment, absorb it, let it go into your body and just own it and go, okay, I've done these things, therefore I've learned or improved or haven't.
Speaker A:And build up your strength that way.
Speaker A:And well, I don't need to tell myself this because I've done this, but the importance of friends and what I call hashtag found family.
Speaker A:So finding the squad that you will have around you, some of whom will be from work, many of whom will not be from whichever walks of life they might be, find that group and spend time with them.
Speaker A:So, you know, I spend a lot of my 90s in, in gay clubs with, you know, a rag, ragtag of friends who are with me still.
Speaker A:And that community is really, really important to me.
Speaker A:You know, and there's like a hairdresser and a, and a gardener and a fitness instructor and a finance director and a CEO and, and just, and a teacher now, head teacher, and a bunch of different people that you would never put together.
Speaker A:But those friends are, they're everything.
Speaker A:And then the last thing I would say, and I've learned this too late, is just be really kind, you know, to everyone around you.
Speaker A:Sorry to all the good people around you.
Speaker A:And that includes helping others.
Speaker A:But mainly is it.
Speaker A:And this I've not done as much as I should have done is be kind to yourself.
Speaker A:And really just because you're the only person that you're always going to be with and just be kind to that person.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:They're probably an alright person.
Speaker A:And just be kind.
Speaker A:That's really important to me.
Speaker B:You have been absolutely wonderful.
Speaker B:All I wish is that pensioner Pat can be kind to himself over the coming years with his hashtag found family, enjoying your dogs, enjoying the time that you've got and just having a brilliant time because you so deserve it.
Speaker A:Nicola, thank you.
Speaker A:It's been gorgeous talking to you.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:One of my meetings is with the therapist, so we are working on that last bit.
Speaker A:Originally started seeing this particular therapist now and I think we can sort this out in one or two sessions.
Speaker A:She was like, yeah, no.
Speaker B:Two and a half years later we.
Speaker A:Are, I think we're going to be together for a long time, she and I.
Speaker A:But thank you.
Speaker A:I really, I'm really grateful and all I can say to, you know, anybody that might have been foolhardy enough to listen to this is just value yourself, put the right people around you and tolerate no nonsense.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And is what I would say, call out the good and just confront the bad and just try and enjoy life because, you know, leaving on a happy note.
Speaker A:We'll all be dead soon, so you've got to enjoy your time on this planet.
Speaker B:Love it.
Speaker B:Thanks so much, Patrick.
Speaker A:Pleasure.
Speaker A:Thank you so much, Nicola.
Speaker B:It was an absolute joy to spend time with Patrick.
Speaker B:I really hope you enjoyed listening to him as much as I enjoyed talking to him.
Speaker B:I've got more brilliant guests lined up over the next few months, so be sure to hit subscribe on your podcast app of choice so that all new episodes are delivered straight to your device when they become available.
Speaker B:That's all from me for today.
Speaker B:Remember, you can buy my book, the Career Confidence Toolkit on Amazon where it's available in paperback, Kindle and Audible formats.
Speaker B:And if you would like to keep in contact, be sure to download my free guide back yourself, your seven step plan to build confidence and achieve your career goals.
Speaker B:And you can get that by going to nicholas simple.com forward/backyourself as well as getting instant access to the guide.
Speaker B:I'll send you my fortnightly newsletter with Career Confidence hints and tips.
Speaker B:Thanks so much for listening and I'll talk to you again very soon.
Speaker B:Bye for now.
