Episode 110
Navigating Corporate Life as an Introvert: Insights from Sarah Manley
In this episode of The Career Confidence Podcast, I'm talking to Sarah Manley, the founder of The Quiet Catalyst. As a coach, mentor and speaker, Sarah helps introverted professionals unlock their potential by offering tailored support for navigating corporate life with confidence and energy. She is also the author of the Amazon number 1 bestselling book The Quiet Catalyst: The Introvert's Guide to Thriving in Your Career.
This is a must listen for all of the introverts out there who may be struggling with managing their energy in the corporate world, which is largely an extroverted environment. It's also a must listen for all the extroverts who might be struggling to understand just why their introverted colleagues can find certain situations so draining.
Key Takeaways:
- The importance of energy management for introverts in corporate environments.
- Strategies to help introverted individuals thrive in extroverted workplaces.
- The power of recongising your unique strengths as introverts and using them to advance your career.
- The importance of having open dialogues about individual needs in the workplace for better productivity.
Links Mentioned in this episode:
Sarah's Book, The The Quiet Catalyst: The Introverts Guide to Thriving in Your Career
Sarah Manley on Linked In
About Nicola Semple
I help people to build their career confidence and achieve their career goals.
You can book a free no-obligation chat about how I can support you to achieve your career goals: https://nicolasemple.com/chat
You can get my free guide "Back Yourself: Your 7 Step Plan to Build Confidence and Achieve Your Career Goals": https://nicolasemple.com/backyourself
You can buy my book The Career Confidence Toolkit: Take Control of Your Career and Fulfil Your Potential: https://nicolasemple.com/book
Connect with me on Linked In to carry on the conversation: https://linkedin.com/in/iamnicolasemple
A new episode of The Career Confidence Podcast is released every second Friday. Hit the subscribe button and you will be the first to know when a new episode goes live.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Hello and welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast where we share inspiring stories, practical strategies, hints and tips so that you build your career with confidence in in this ever changing world.
Speaker B:I'm your host, Nicholas Semple, a career and confidence coach and author of the Career Confidence Toolkit.
Speaker B:Today I'm talking to Sarah Manley, who's the founder of the Quiet Catalyst.
Speaker B:Sarah's a coach, a mentor and a speaker and she helps introverted professionals unlock their potential by offering tailored support so that they can navigate corporate life with confidence and energy.
Speaker B:She's also the author of the Amazon number one best selling book, the Quiet the Introvert's guide to thriving in your career.
Speaker B:I would say that this episode is a must listen for all the introverts out there.
Speaker B:If you are struggling with managing your energy in the corporate world, because let's face it, the corporate world is largely an extroverted environment, then Sarah's got some great tips for you.
Speaker B:And also I would argue it's a must listen for the extroverts as well.
Speaker B:If you're struggling to understand just why your introverted colleagues can find certain situations so draining, you're going to learn so much from the conversation that I have with Sarah.
Speaker B:Hello, Sarah.
Speaker A:Hi.
Speaker A:Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker A:Looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker B:Sarah, what I would love for us to start on is to take a little trip down memory lane and for you to share with the listeners and for us to have a conversation about the career journey that you've been on.
Speaker B:You left Durham University with your geography degree and then what happened and then what?
Speaker A:It feels like a lifetime ago.
Speaker A:It really does.
Speaker A: That would be in: Speaker A:So having done geography, which was only picked because it was my favorite subject at school, it's what I loved.
Speaker A:I loved learning about it and that's.
Speaker B:A good reason for picking a.
Speaker B:For picking a degree subject.
Speaker A:Loved it and continued to love it.
Speaker A:But getting towards the end I was like, okay, what do I do?
Speaker A:And what seemed to be possible was becoming a teacher, which really didn't float my boat, or going into research and kind of stick staying on university and doing something deeper in one of the subtopic is of geography.
Speaker A:But I wanted to get a proper job as I saw it, like a business job.
Speaker A:But it was really hard at that time to get on any graduate schemes without previous business experience.
Speaker A:So the truth is it wasn't some big master plan.
Speaker A:I ended up doing marketing because it was a course that I could do in business without any previous business experience.
Speaker A:That's the truth.
Speaker A:That's how I ended up.
Speaker A:And so off I went to Birmingham to do my master's in marketing.
Speaker A:It was only a year, but it kind of opened up a bit more some ideas about worlds that I knew nothing about in marketing and industries and so on.
Speaker A:And I started to do some graduate recruitment fairs and assessment centers and it just opened up a world of, oh, there's real opportunity in these, in these spaces.
Speaker A:And then, as I often do in my life, I just follow the breadcrumb trail of what comes next.
Speaker A:It's really my philosophy on life.
Speaker A:I never set big goals and I want this in five years because I have no idea.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I just follow the breadcrumbs.
Speaker A:So I'd ended up going to a recruitment fair at the neck and doing the rounds and just clicked with a guy who grew up in the same hometown as my mum grew up.
Speaker A:You know how these conversations go.
Speaker A:And it was for a brilliant company called Stryker Orthopedics.
Speaker A:So in the healthcare space.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I trotted off down to Newbury, just packed up and off I went to go and live down there and kind of started this whole career in healthcare, which I think I couldn't have found a better space for me, actually.
Speaker A:Healthcare was never a space that I'd considered.
Speaker A:I considered myself a very squeamish person.
Speaker A:So I crossed out being a doctor or something like that, which had been an idea in my earlier years.
Speaker A:Too squeamish to do that, but it allowed me to be part of making a difference, helping people.
Speaker A:But from a business, commercial side, which, yeah, I really enjoyed, I really loved.
Speaker B:And when you were working within that healthcare space was always marketing roles that you held.
Speaker A:Yeah, always marketing.
Speaker A:Always marketing.
Speaker A:And what I enjoyed about at least healthcare marketing is it's mostly B2B business to business, some business to consumer is you're a bit jack of all trades, actually, so you have to be quite commercial, so quite a.
Speaker A:With what's happening with the finance side of things.
Speaker A:You can also be very creative in terms of some of the campaigns.
Speaker A:Leadership and people management was a big theme in the organizations I worked for.
Speaker A:You need to be both internal facing but also external facing with customers.
Speaker A:And I got to do some brilliant stuff with healthcare professionals, with patients and families and some of the rare disease spaces that I worked with.
Speaker A:That, yeah, you know, as a geographer with a marketing degree was quite, quite awesome, I have to say.
Speaker A:It was really fun, really good times.
Speaker B:And that career spanned a couple of decades.
Speaker B:There was different roles, different transition points within it.
Speaker B:When you look back on it.
Speaker B:Are there any key milestones that stand out?
Speaker B:What were some of the big learning points for you?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think probably like two in that corporate career and then probably one more recently when I've done this pivot coaching and speaking and writing the book.
Speaker A:And they're both at kind of key moments of leveling up or transitioning up in the organization, I think.
Speaker A:So I became a line manager for the first time quite early in my career.
Speaker A:I think I'd be about 26.
Speaker A:And it's that interesting step of going from the doing the doing the doing and you're given a task and you get on with it and you report back, but you're, you're kind of on your own, doing your thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And I finally got a leadership role.
Speaker A:I had one direct report at the time, just one.
Speaker A:But it was really interesting because So I was 26, my direct report was 50 something.
Speaker A:And she thought she was going to get my job that I'd been recruited in from outside.
Speaker B:That sounds like a wonderful situation to walk into.
Speaker A:And I didn't know how to be a leader, nobody told me.
Speaker A:So I just copied what I thought other people did.
Speaker A:And so I adopted a bit of a command and control approach.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So she was a bit resistant to me.
Speaker A:So I just dug my heels.
Speaker A:I was like, but you have to, you must, this is the expectation, you must do it.
Speaker A:And of course her reaction wasn't very good.
Speaker A:It felt awful for me because that is the opposite of my natural leadership style.
Speaker A:As it developed over time, I've always been much more of a coaching style of leader.
Speaker A:So it was that kind of learning of.
Speaker A:In even those early days, you need to find your own way of being and doing to be really effective.
Speaker A:Yes, you can be inspired and learn from others, but in the end you need to assimilate it and just do it your way and not think that there is a right way and a wrong way, but do it your way to be most effective.
Speaker A:And then later on.
Speaker A:So by, let's probably fast forward 10 years, about halfway through, let's say we, I had the opportunity to become a global director and move to Amsterdam.
Speaker A:So awesome opportunity.
Speaker A:Really exciting.
Speaker A:Really loved the category I was working in.
Speaker A:This was rare diseases and epilepsy.
Speaker A:Loved the space.
Speaker A:But I suddenly learned that you don't have enough hours in the day.
Speaker A:You know, when you're a director you are managing everything and the buck stops with you.
Speaker A:So my way of being successful so far to that point was just being incredibly organized, incredibly efficient, hard Working, picking the right priorities, head down, get a good job done.
Speaker A:You can't do that at that level because you just cannot do everything.
Speaker A:And I started to realize that being efficient meant something different.
Speaker A:It meant actually taking care of yourself and your energy.
Speaker A:And as a quieter, more reserved, introverted person, I used to invest way too much energy in hindsight on trying to keep up with everybody else.
Speaker A:I now call it like playing to the drumbeat of somebody else's rhythm.
Speaker A:You know, there were all these big, bold, brilliant characters in the sales and marketing team and in the wider cross functional team, but they were very different characters to me.
Speaker A:I was the quiet one and everybody else was gregarious, brilliant, but a bit much for me.
Speaker A:But I used to try and keep up the whole time, whether that was in meetings, in workshops, in social events.
Speaker A:I used to get to about Wednesday and think, what is wrong with me?
Speaker B:I'm not gonna make it through the week.
Speaker A:I'm exhausted.
Speaker A:I was like, oh, I'm exercising, I'm eating well, am I iron deficient?
Speaker A:All these things?
Speaker A:No, Sarah, you're just not taking care of your energy as an introvert.
Speaker A:So took me a long while to recognize that and a few times where, yeah, I was pretty near a burnout.
Speaker A:Point of something is not good here.
Speaker A:But you know, you would get extra pressure of I never forget first meeting.
Speaker A:So just before I became a director, I've been asked to take on a new category which I knew nothing about.
Speaker A:Gone to the first meeting, my boss was there as well.
Speaker A:The conversation is bubbling around the room and I said nothing in the meeting.
Speaker A:I said nothing.
Speaker A:I was absorbing and digesting and trying to figure out what on earth was going on.
Speaker A:We came out of the room and my boss said to me, sarah, you can't go to a meeting and say nothing.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:So clear expectation, speak up more in meetings.
Speaker A:Fine, can do that.
Speaker A:So I then would over invest my energy on just speaking up and saying anything, just saying something.
Speaker A:But again, it was that energetic thing of.
Speaker A:It would take me a lot of energy to be ready and able to say a thing which I felt had any kind of interest or relevance behind it.
Speaker A:Yeah, would take a lot.
Speaker A:So I think that's where this whole actually obsession with energy management for myself, but also for the introverts that I work with now has all come from of you can absolutely do these things, but you have to work on your energy.
Speaker B:And from both of those examples that you've just given to me is what I'm sure so many people are going to be able to relate to it.
Speaker B:But what, what I find really interesting and what, as you were speaking, I was kind of hearing this underlying theme of just trust yourself.
Speaker B:Trust yourself and be true to yourself and what you need.
Speaker A:Yes, 100.
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:And I think that takes time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's really hard, I think, to do in your, your early career where you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You are thrown, launched, springing into a group of people who have way more experience than you.
Speaker A:Totally different experience to you.
Speaker A:Some are very competitive, some are more welcoming and kind of community building towards you.
Speaker A:And I think you do question yourself.
Speaker A:However you know yourself at that time, at that young age, you do question yourself of is there a better way to be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And as said before, I think you can learn from that.
Speaker A:You can be inspired by that.
Speaker A:But something it took me a long time to work out as well is feedback that you're given might be brilliant feedback, but it might not be the right feedback for you.
Speaker B:Tell me more about that.
Speaker A:So, for example, and this goes to my more recent career pivot, right.
Speaker A:So I left this 20 year corporate experience and then shifted coach, author, speaker.
Speaker A:And as I was writing the book, somebody who's written several best selling business books said to me, sarah, you must, you must start your podcast now.
Speaker A:This was terrifying.
Speaker A:This is awful.
Speaker A:You know, it was enough for me to have to put my book out, not have to, to choose to put my book out into the world.
Speaker A:That was enough.
Speaker A:And to think of.
Speaker A:And now you also need to learn podcasting, learn to speak.
Speaker A:And as I said, you know, I was always a quieter, more reserved person.
Speaker A:Public speaking, presenting and so on was never my joy.
Speaker A:It's a muscle I've built over years and more recently especially, but it was never my joy.
Speaker A:You must start your podcast now.
Speaker A:And it's good advice.
Speaker A:It was good advice.
Speaker A:How can you reach more people, how can you amplify your voice, etc.
Speaker A:That is good feedback and advice, but it wasn't the right feedback for me at that time because all it did was just put me in a spin.
Speaker A:Yeah, put me in a spin of self doubt.
Speaker A:I can't do this.
Speaker A:I'm not in the right place.
Speaker A:My book's gonna flop because I haven't done it.
Speaker A:But like you, nicely said, it's that trust in yourself that actually what I can do is do it in a different way.
Speaker A:So I'm not starting my podcast now before the book's launched, but I can engage with people well through podcasting.
Speaker A:Like this in a different way, but through other talks, through other way that just feels more like my way.
Speaker B:I love that now we have jumped ahead a little bit because we've.
Speaker B:We've missed out the bit where you decide to leave the two decade long career in healthcare.
Speaker B:What, what happened there?
Speaker B:What, what decision point did you come to where you thought, actually this isn't for me anymore.
Speaker A:It's funny how things happen, isn't it?
Speaker A:Sometimes there are layers.
Speaker A:There are layers to it because for a while, two, three years I've been thinking, I'm not happy.
Speaker A:Something is not right here.
Speaker A:It was like an energetic feeling again.
Speaker A:I think of just like, I'm more and more depleted.
Speaker A:I'm doing good energy management.
Speaker A:But something at my core is like, it's heavy.
Speaker A:And as with many corporate organizations, there are rounds of reorganization.
Speaker A:So I'm watching these rounds of reorganization go round and at some point I'm like, do you know, I think this might be my time.
Speaker A:And what led up to that was we'd had.
Speaker A:So I've been living in the Netherlands six, seven years.
Speaker A:We'd finished Covid ish, moved back to the UK after Brexit.
Speaker A:Covid it just felt like the right time to come home.
Speaker A:I was then trying to commute from.
Speaker A:We lived up near Manchester at the time, trying to commute to Amsterdam.
Speaker A:I had a team in Singapore as well.
Speaker A:So occasionally I was going there.
Speaker A:That wasn't helping with the depletion.
Speaker A:That was hard.
Speaker A:And then we had some things happen in family where my husband's father passed away, which was quite quick.
Speaker A:Not long after my grandmother, who was like a second mother really passed away.
Speaker A:And this is what I mean by the layers sometimes.
Speaker A:And we're at the wake of my husband's father and just in chatting with different people, there was a more distant family member said something like, the thing is you never know what opportunities you've got in life and sometimes you just have to go for things.
Speaker A:And it was just the right person saying the right thing at the right time of I just need to go for this.
Speaker A:I just need to take this opportunity of redundancy with both hands and see where it goes.
Speaker A:Because you don't know what happens next.
Speaker B:And when you took that decision to go for the redundancy, did you know that you wanted to coach and specifically coach people with a preference for introversion?
Speaker A:No clue.
Speaker A:No clue.
Speaker A:Here is the next chapter of the breadcrumb.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I've actually started retraining as a coach before even redundancy was Mooted.
Speaker A:I would describe myself in the latter part of my career as busy but bored.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that boredom stemmed from again, there wasn't the injection of energy of things that brought me joy.
Speaker A:And I loved as much as there had been earlier and I'd had some coach training as a director in the business, I had to lead as a coach, which I'd loved.
Speaker A:Just those moments where you just click with something.
Speaker A:There's something in this that yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Lights the fire in my belly in a really pleasant way.
Speaker A:So I decided and I was doing like a Monday online night school with Optimus Coach Academy, which is just brilliant to find light minded souls.
Speaker A:Had such good fun, learned so much about myself and I think that also helped, you know, through that period of redundancy and deciding to leave 20 year career, but also 12 years in that organization is a big thing.
Speaker A:So to have coaching through that really helped me leave.
Speaker A:Well, if I say it that way.
Speaker A:So when I'd finished I said, right, I'm going to give myself six months break.
Speaker A:So very fortunate to have that opportunity.
Speaker A:I'm gonna give myself six months break and see where I am without kind of particular schedule, without pressure on myself.
Speaker A:It's very easy to say, but it was quite a funky thing to experience after 20 years of high pressure.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I can do anything today.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh, your blame.
Speaker A:Your brain plays tricks on you some days anyway.
Speaker A:So six months break and during that time I follow the breadcrumb trail to do a retreat because that's what you do in your early 40s when you've been made redundant, you go on a retreat.
Speaker A:So off I went for a long weekend in a yurt in Wales and we were doing walking, yoga and writing.
Speaker A:So three of my favorite things.
Speaker A:Yep, very nice.
Speaker A:And that's where the book started bubbling.
Speaker A:First of all, before going to the retreat, I thought, gosh, I'm gonna look like a right twit.
Speaker A:Because here I am going on a writer's retreat and I I' creative writing like as a hobby in the past, but I'm gonna get all these writers and they're all gonna have these brilliant ideas on what am I gonna say?
Speaker A:Of course it wasn't like that when you got there at all.
Speaker A:But I already started with these ideas of my big sister at work.
Speaker A:That was the first idea.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's like, who would I love to have gone to to have those conversations about I'm managing this woman who's twice my age and I don't know what to Do.
Speaker A:How should I do it?
Speaker A:Who do you have those conversations with?
Speaker A:My big sister at work.
Speaker A:Anyway, so from this brilliant retreat, excellent coach and, and all around wonderful lady Claire Winter, I came up with this stack of post it notes of just ideas that just flowed and flowed and flowed.
Speaker A:Like once it started, people have described it when they've talked about their books as a download and it felt like that it was like this download of woof, here it comes.
Speaker A:And I was still coach training at the time and my peer coach was like at one point, you do know this needs to be a book, right?
Speaker A:Like you can't just stop with this pile of post it notes.
Speaker A:This, this is coming, right?
Speaker A:This is coming out.
Speaker A:And yeah, really, really curious by.
Speaker A:So that was sort of July.
Speaker A:By September I'd gone, yep, you're right, it's a book.
Speaker A:Let's get writing.
Speaker A:Found some help.
Speaker A:Like how do you write a book?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:So got some help to, to how to structure it, how to do it.
Speaker A:By December the manuscript was ready for the publisher.
Speaker A:The following May it was published.
Speaker A:Now, quite a roller coaster.
Speaker B:Tell everyone the name of the book and where they can find the book.
Speaker A:Ah, super.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's called Quiet Catalyst, the introvert's guide to thriving in your career.
Speaker A:Most accessible place is Amazon.
Speaker A:If Amazon isn't your thing though, you can find it in places like Smith's and Waterstones and all good bookshops.
Speaker B:Excellent, excellent.
Speaker B:And I know that the work you do helps so many people.
Speaker B:As a fellow introvert, it took me a long time to figure out that energy piece and I'm curious, what advice would you share with somebody who is in the workplace at the moment and is maybe struggling a little bit, has this awareness and understanding that they are an introvert, but they're not quite sure what, what do they do now?
Speaker B:How, how do they, how do they manage the situations that they find themselves in?
Speaker A:Yeah, that's such a good question.
Speaker A:It's such a good question because I think, you know, it all starts with that self awareness piece and the kind of recognition of this is who I am.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:The hard bit then is.
Speaker A:And I'm okay with that.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Because so often in organizations there is a more extroverted ideal that is perpetuated either consciously or sometimes beneath the iceberg, that it's just the way of being that seems to be praised.
Speaker A:So learning to be okay with this is me and I rock.
Speaker A:Actually, I'm pretty awesome.
Speaker A:And I think part of that is really understanding what are your Real strengths.
Speaker A:I'm a big believer in coaching of, you know, starting with your strengths and using these as your foundations for everything else that you're going to have to stretch to doing so.
Speaker A:These are often things like incredible listening skills, attention to detail, focus, strategy, and.
Speaker A:But everybody is different, right?
Speaker A:You know, introversion is not one thing.
Speaker A:You and I, as two introverts would have different strengths, but these are some examples.
Speaker A:Sometimes these are strengths that are overlooked in organizations as well.
Speaker A:So again, it's learning what those strengths are, really understanding the value of them and what you uniquely bring in your team and your organization.
Speaker A:I've been parts of teams where there's a.
Speaker A:There's a framework called Insights Discovery Profile where, you know, people get colors or color preferences.
Speaker A:And I've stood on this wheel, this, you know, literal wheel on the.
Speaker A:On the.
Speaker A:On the floor.
Speaker A:And individuals are told, you know, stand on your color preference.
Speaker A:So I would find myself the opposite end of the wheel to everybody else often.
Speaker A:And that can be a place of real, like, fear of flip.
Speaker A:I'm different.
Speaker A:I'm the other one out.
Speaker A:It's a very like, you know, ancient human thing of.
Speaker A:You want to be part of the group to be safe.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So being the odd one is not a nice feeling.
Speaker A:But actually realizing by being the odd one, no one is odd.
Speaker A:But, you know, being the different one can be a place of incredible value to the team and to the organization.
Speaker A:But to really harness that, to really make that happen, you need to have some conversations.
Speaker A:You need to have some conversations with yourself, like I was saying about believing in yourself and having that confidence that you do rock and you add a lot of value, but also having some conversations with your manager, with your team about what you need, what do you need to be your best.
Speaker A:What do you need to work at your best possible level to maintain that energy, to be able to be productive, to be able to be visible, to be adding things in conversations, because it perhaps isn't the same as everybody else.
Speaker A:So learning to assert those needs is really important.
Speaker B:And it takes a lot of courage.
Speaker B:It takes a lot of courage to put your hand up and say, I want to have these conversations.
Speaker B:And actually, as you're seeing that, wouldn't it be great if that was just what happened to standard practice?
Speaker B:And I don't just mean for the introverts.
Speaker B:I just mean for all of us to be able to advocate for ourselves and express what do we need to be able to work at our best?
Speaker A:Yes, 100%.
Speaker A:I mean, let's create that utopia Right now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think it comes.
Speaker A:I think it comes both ways.
Speaker A:I think it's incredibly courageous, especially for people less experienced in their careers, to say, I need, I want to hear perhaps some more people that I'm coaching who are kind of a younger demographic being clearer on what they want at least.
Speaker A:But I think it's also a responsibility of line managers, more senior people, even peers in teams, to say, what do you need from me?
Speaker A:How can I help you be your best?
Speaker A:It shouldn't all be on the person constantly trying to assert themselves and pushing for what they want.
Speaker A:But we also need to open those spaces, open those doors to make it easier for people to say, yeah, I feel like that as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, let's make sure we do behave in that way in this group.
Speaker A:I need that as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And as you say, the line managers and the team leaders expressing what they need.
Speaker B: nd there'll be no calls until: Speaker B:We all need to get our work done, but we need to do it in a way that allows us to use our energy to be as productive as we can in the ways that we can.
Speaker A:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker A:And I think the earlier those conversations happen, the better it was a new team forming or a new leader comes in or you're new into a role within an existing team, the earlier you have those open conversations to contract, not only about what we do but how we do it.
Speaker A:It's just worth its weight in goal because it takes away all of the.
Speaker A:Well, Nicola didn't log on until 10 o' clock.
Speaker A:What's going on there?
Speaker A:She's a bit lazy.
Speaker A:Those sorts of things of.
Speaker A:I bet she just had a lion.
Speaker A:Did she get drunk at the end of the team meeting?
Speaker A:Maybe she's got a hangover.
Speaker A:All those sorts of things that start little myths and little misunderstandings, niggles, especially in remote teams.
Speaker A:So if you can have that conversation and say, well, if I'm going to be there till 10pm because you're expecting me, how to have dinner.
Speaker A:I'm just going to need a bit of time in the morning to decompress because if I get home at 10 after a day of networking, I won't be asleep till 1am because I'm still buzzing.
Speaker A:So how do I manage that time?
Speaker A:Just having that open conversation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you used the word that can often send a chill down an introvert spine.
Speaker B:The networking word.
Speaker B:I've had so many conversations with people in a coaching capacity about networking and how networking doesn't need to be what you think it needs to be.
Speaker B:But I would love to get your take on what are some of the helpful things for introverts when it comes to networking and, and dare I say, how can we make it fun for them?
Speaker B:Or actually I'm saying for them, for us because I, I absolutely am an introvert.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and you know, I, I don't meet many people that say I just love networking.
Speaker A:Introvert, extrovert, ambiver, anything human being.
Speaker A:I don't meet many that say I really love it all the time.
Speaker A:So I think the first thing is just to reframe a bit.
Speaker A:What is networking anyway?
Speaker A:Like networking for me is a conversation with a purpose.
Speaker A:This could be networking, this kind of conversation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's just a good conversation with a person who is interesting, you want to get to know and that's, that's kind of networking.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think it's reframing.
Speaker A:What is it?
Speaker A:I think it's also about setting a goal for it because I'm going to network.
Speaker A:It is a bit overwhelming and a bit nebulous and.
Speaker A:But if it's actually, well, I want to meet two people who can help me find my next role, who might be able to help me find out about training in this particular area, whatever it might be.
Speaker A:But just set a bit of a goal so it's a bit more intentional and you also know then if you have succeeded and you can give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done rather than.
Speaker A:Or I've gone into a room and I've only talked to two people.
Speaker A:Yeah, but you talk to two people who really helped you.
Speaker A:So just reframing this way, I think if it's face to face events it can feel even bigger because you've got to get to the place.
Speaker A:A couple of things I do for this and I went to one a few weeks ago, it was like 150 people, something like that.
Speaker A:I knew one person in the room so I'd set my goal, right, I'm going to speak to.
Speaker A:I think I had three people in mind.
Speaker A:Three people was my goal and I always set myself a time goal.
Speaker A:So I'm going to stay for 20 minutes and if I hate it I'm going to leave.
Speaker A:But at 20 minutes I consciously take a break, go and get a drink, go to the bathroom Whatever you need to do and then make that conscious choice of, I'm staying, ongoing, I'm staying.
Speaker A:Okay, what am I going to do now?
Speaker A:I'm going.
Speaker A:Okay, fine, go back and reflect and recharge.
Speaker A:Go back next time.
Speaker A:It's also though about thinking, how do I want to show up?
Speaker A:So this Particular one was 6pm to 11pm, far too late for me.
Speaker A:I left 8.
Speaker A:But thinking how you're going to show up.
Speaker A:So I have quite a busy day of coaching and different things.
Speaker A:I could have scrambled to get there at six o' clock, but my energy would have been like tight, you know, stress tight.
Speaker A:Hadn't been to this venue before.
Speaker A:So I decided, well, I'm just going to be late.
Speaker A:It's fine.
Speaker A:It goes against all of my senses to be late for something, but I'm gonna choose to be 15 minutes late and that's gonna be fine.
Speaker A:I'm an adult, it's fine.
Speaker A:Because then what it meant I could drive, park the car a little bit further away and take 10 to 15 minutes to walk the rest.
Speaker A:And by walking now, I'm calmer, I've taken in some fresh air, I've thought about other things, I've got my head straight.
Speaker A:So instead of walking in like, oh, tense, panic, I'm walking in confident, ready with some fresh air in my brain cells, ready to have a conversation.
Speaker A:So just being a bit intentional about how do I want to show up again, it goes back to the what do I want to do?
Speaker A:Talk to three people.
Speaker A:How do I want to do it?
Speaker A:With some energy, with some bounce, with some, you know, smile on my face rather than tight shoulders.
Speaker A:The, the other thing I would say is again, going back to something we said before, to build on your strengths, always start with your strengths.
Speaker A:Not, oh my gosh, I'm panicking, what am I going to say?
Speaker A:But build on your strengths.
Speaker A:So probably you're better at talking to people one on one, one to two, than you are in a big group.
Speaker A:So think about that.
Speaker A:So where are you going to find those solo flyers in the room?
Speaker A:In the coffee queue, for example, or at the side of the bar?
Speaker A:Because there'll be other people just like you.
Speaker A:Half the room are probably just like you.
Speaker A:Statistically also go, who can I talk to?
Speaker A:So go and find those other solo flyers.
Speaker A:Don't just join the edge of a big group because you're never going to get in.
Speaker A:Most likely go and find those other people like you and have those conversations.
Speaker A:Have some conversation starters up your sleeve.
Speaker A:Like, have you traveled far it's enough, you don't need to ask some kind of Nobel Peace winning question.
Speaker A:Yeah, just have you traveled far, it's fine.
Speaker A:And then follow up, always follow up, you know, so you're bound to have made a couple of good connections.
Speaker A:So Easy now with LinkedIn or email, whatever, get details and just send them a note afterwards.
Speaker B:I think that's such an important point and it's something that I've always tried to do but I don't think many people do and that is about maintaining those connections you make at these events because it's all very well to have the conversations and have a nice time and have a coffee together, but then what?
Speaker B:And if you can be the person that follows up the next day or the next couple of days makes that more intimate, intimate connection, maybe arranges a one to one chat a couple of weeks down the line.
Speaker B:Yeah, people remember you and, and when people remember you, that's when you can start to have that potentially mutually productive relationship.
Speaker A:I couldn't agree more, couldn't agree more.
Speaker A:I think following up the next day or the next couple of days, like you say, popping a note in your diary for six weeks time a month, whatever is feels the right thing for you, just does.
Speaker A:And all you need to do right is like hey Nicola, it's great to see you at the event.
Speaker A:Just thought I'd check in, see how things are going, like can be fine or you might get to that month and be like oh it only feels like two minutes ago.
Speaker A:So I'm actually going to leave it another few weeks, that's also fine.
Speaker A:But yeah, just having like a bit of a personal connection in some way is great visibility.
Speaker A:You know so often introverts, I get told you need to be more visible.
Speaker A:I think this is a brilliant way to be visible.
Speaker A:You don't have to be standing on the stage or jazz hands to be visible.
Speaker A:It can be more subtle than that in a kind of deeper, more connected way.
Speaker B:Such brilliant advice.
Speaker B:And on the topic of advice, I would love to know the advice you would give to 21 year old Sarah or 20 or 22 year old Sarah, whatever age you were when you finished that marketing MSC and you were leaving university, embarking in the world of work, what piece of advice would you give to her?
Speaker A:I think I would say hold on for the ride, you don't know what's coming.
Speaker A:But also, you know, I keep this little sticky note on my monitor.
Speaker A:I'm a big fan of little quotes and little things.
Speaker A:So this is one that I've had from the beginning of my career pivot a couple of years ago and it says enjoy the voyage of discovery.
Speaker A:Stay curious about the destination.
Speaker A:What I mean by that for 20ish year old Sarah is just enjoy the process of learning and doing and being and don't sweat the small stuff of the what if.
Speaker A:Am I enough?
Speaker A:Am I doing this right?
Speaker A:Do I look silly?
Speaker A:Like maybe, maybe you look silly in that meeting.
Speaker A:But is anybody else thinking about as much as you are?
Speaker A:No, they've all forgotten about it.
Speaker A:So just enjoy that process of discovering and learning and following the breadcrumb trail because you never know where you're going to end up.
Speaker A:You know there's different decisions you take along the way.
Speaker A:You go left, you go right, you move to Amsterdam, you don't, you do whatever.
Speaker A:You never know where you're going to end up.
Speaker A:And still now, you know, I'm loving, loving, loving what I do now but I don't know where it's going.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:So when I think of well my now 44 this year.
Speaker A:Yeah, 44 this year.
Speaker A:So what is 51 year old Sarah 60?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:And I love not knowing.
Speaker A:I think that's the most exciting thing.
Speaker A:It's incredibly fortunate, incredibly fortunate.
Speaker A:So just not, not sweating that stuff.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Enjoy the finding out.
Speaker A:And you know I guess if I think back to your very nice question.
Speaker A:How do you go from geography to marketing to.
Speaker A:I think if I'd gone back even a bit earlier like 11 year old Sarah or 15 year old, I think I would have said even start networking then there's that word again.
Speaker A:But it's about expanding your horizons, knowing what's possible.
Speaker A:That the job that I do now I didn't know was a thing and it was in those days I didn't know was a thing that you could do.
Speaker A:As I've gone through my career I've uncovered all of these different jobs, ways of life that I had you nothing about because my world view was really pretty narrow.
Speaker A:So I think the earlier you get exposed to all those different ways of being and doing and existing and yeah the better.
Speaker A:Just gives you more inspiration, more idea about how you can be successful in your own way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And also it's never too late to start, it's never too late to become curious and see what's out there.
Speaker B:Now if people are curious about finding out more about you and the work that you do, where is the best place for them to take a look?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you can find information on my website, so the quietcatalyst.com and you'll also find lots of my content on LinkedIn.
Speaker A:So we're sharing hints and tips about all things introvert on there as well.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker B:Thank you so much Sarah.
Speaker B:I know the work you do makes such a difference to so many people, so thank you for that and thank you for spending time with me today.
Speaker A:Thank you again for the invitation.
Speaker A:Loved our conversation.
Speaker A:Thanks so much.
Speaker B:A huge thank you to Sarah for all of her advice and her insights.
Speaker B:As I mentioned during the conversation, I'm an introvert and I really need to be mindful of how I manage my diary.
Speaker B:I absolutely love the one to one coaching work that I do with my clients, but I also need to add in sufficient breathing space between those coaching conversations that allows me to refresh and recharge so that I'm able to give my best.
Speaker B:And this is something I would wholeheartedly recommend that you do too.
Speaker B:Because being an introvert doesn't mean you can't handle working with people or that you're not sociable.
Speaker B:It just means you need to be mindful of how you manage your energy so that you are able to give your best.
Speaker B:I've got more brilliant guests lined up over the next few months, so be sure to hit subscribe on your podcast app of choice so the episodes are delivered straight to your device when they become available.
Speaker B:That's all from me for today.
Speaker B:Remember, you can buy my book the Career Confidence Toolkit on Amazon or where it's available in paperback, Kindle and Audible formats.
Speaker B:And if you'd like to stay in contact, be sure to download my free guide back yourself.
Speaker B:Your seven step plan to build confidence and achieve your career goals.
Speaker B:And you can find that by going to nicolasimple.com backyourself as well as getting instant access to the guide.
Speaker B:I'll send you my fortnightly newsletter with Career Confidence hints and tips.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for listening and I'll talk to you again very soon.
Speaker B:Bye for now.
